What has it been like collaborating with another artist – is there ever a clash of artistic wills?
I think in the same way that I am perhaps not a normal architect, Jeanne is not a normal artist. She knows what strings to pull and people to talk to to help transform the political and cultural infrastructure around this project. She’s had to fight to make sure we get the freedom for the local community to do what it has done so far.
I’ve worked with artists on projects before where they have said ‘do what you need to do to make this work’ but then wanted complete control over every detail and there comes a point where you just have to step away. This has been completely different. Jeanne has really given everyone involved the space to give their honest opinion and really contribute.
For 2Up 2Down, you’ve been working on a regular basis with young people from Anfield. Is working with young people on design and getting them to make the final decisions something new for you?
Yes. I have experience working with people on regeneration stuff but that has been mainly with adults and not young people, so that has been different. Saying that, we have a design process at URBED called ‘Building for Change’ which is what we use to get adults to remodel their neighbourhoods so we have taken that and adapted it to suit young people. So that means shorter design sessions and using the skills that some may already have. For example some of the girls had done graphic design at GCSE and so they had a greater design awareness than some of the adults.
The level of design and architectural understanding that some the volunteers and young people have is really impresseive. They could point out the advantages and disadvantages of a design decision so quickly and understood how they dynamics of the building had to work. How did you manage to get that level of understanding across?
The main thing is that they learnt by doing. If I was to stand there and give them a lecture on urban design, it would send them to sleep! So the time they have spent on this project and the hands-on experience has been really vital to help ramp up their understanding. Things kicked off in earnest at the start of last year when we started running the design workshops and we’ve done more and more work to get this project off the ground. I hope that what they have learnt also stays with them because it’s obviously not only useful for this project but it useful for when they are looking for somewhere to live or they are thinking about making changes to their own homes.
The collaborative process is naturally a difficult process. Did you ever feel there were times when there was a tension between what the architects wanted and the community wanted?
There can be tension but I think it’s a healthy tension because it pushes architects not to just churn out the usual solutions but to actually have good reasons for making the decisions they make. And to be able to explain and justify them to the community that is going to be living with the final decision. So yes, tension and conflict is a natural part of the collaborative process because it means that architects and community members have to sit and discuss issue and resolve them – it’s a process of negotiation and I think that’s what makes community led projects so successful.
In this case especially, the key advantage is that we have ended up with something that is richer than it would be anyone had worked on the project alone. You get the expertise of those who have lived in the region with the expertise of architects who have been working on these issues for years and have the training to back them up.
What is it that puts people off from the community-level engagement? What is there to lose?
I think it’s probably to do with time. It does take time and it is a long process although not that much longer than usual if you do it right. Also you can’t be that kind of architect with a big ego who shows up in a black polo-neck and tells everyone what is going to happen – and insists that they know best.
What has been the most challenging aspect of the project so far?
I guess it was difficult at first to really understand what this project was all about. Even though Jeanne never intended it to be a strictly straightforward art project, this was always going to be a real thing in real neighbourhoods. So it was very different and a lot of us struggled to grasp how it would work and what it actually entailed - construction contracts, legal documents and council-level applications as well establishing a Community Land Trust.
Now that we have the bakery and plans for the houses and community spaces, things are a lot clearer but earlier on it felt a little abstract and people were not sure what they were getting themselves in for.
Where does Anfield go from here? 2Up 2Down is only a small project so what does it offer the rest of Anfield?
Whilst not everyone has the time or inclination to take part in something like a CLT, as something that offers a real workable alternative it is really powerful. It demonstrates that a more piecemeal and small-scale process can be more successful than demolishing lots of buildings. The argument has always been that it’s cheaper to demolish the houses then to refurbish them but that’s not always true. It’s just that the business model that the big companies and developers operate is different and they want big margins to justify their involvement.
So, again that’s where 2Up 2Down comes in as it shows that there is a different way of doing things – a way that contributes back to the future of the existing community. And whilst some still see the CLTs and other homesteading schemes are hugely risky, what the last couple of years have shown is that big, large-scale projects that demolish homes are also risky and more importantly they don’t work.
What does it mean to live well?
I guess it’s having the time and space to do things that you enjoy- which in a lot of new houses you can’t really do. You may have the time but you definitely don’t have the space! Also, to socialise at home. I was reading the recent RIBA report about how people live and there were some really prosaic examples of people not being able to have a bike as there was no space to put it… it’s just crazy. There was also an example of someone who was having to keep their hoover at their mum’s house because they didn’t have the space. Which is doubly bad because then your mum would know how often you hoovered or not…
